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@ryansolid.bsky.social thanks for the discussion on stream today! You asked on stream today to show you a trello or otherwise sufficiently complex app in datastar. Here is that as as well as a few others that opened my eyes a bit, as a former skeptic. kanban.jsonbateman.com

yeah this one pretty much proves the point ryan was trying to make you either make janky apps or put everything into web components choose between bad dx and bad ux with solid you dont have to choose

This is a false dichotomy that I don't think you intended to sound as sensational given your other responses below, re: nuance. I don't really want to keep going back and forth here though. I feel like the original intent of this thread has been misinterpreted (or miscommunicated or both).

As @drk.wtf said, after over a decade of having my teams fumble with SPA architecture, D* has been refreshingly simple (in the Rich Hickey sense of the word) while still giving me the tools to build high-fidelity apps. I appreciate Solid2 (and use it on an app in prod!).

would love to hear if solid2 feels simple and anything we can do to make it better

IMO it is in the best of current TS frameworks. I raved on release about the consolidation of the metaframework into the framework. My main complaint is abstraction complexity and onboarding. Solid2 feels like a framework targeted at people who are already experts in modern JS frameworks.

I think this has less to do with the architecture and more to do with the documentation. I think the language is (or was, might be better now) obtuse for anyone not already versed in the challenges. And maybe that's correct given the target audience.

My goal right now is to help more intermediate developers (across the stack) build better software on the web. Much is education: folks not understanding the tradeoffs and pitfalls, using abstractions they read about on LinkedIn for the wrong problem, not understanding the web as a platform, etc.

This comes back to the reason I have, in the past year, started gravitating away from modern TS frameworks. It is hard to see how complex it is when you're deep in it every day. When you have to take a step back and work with developers trying to build stuff on undisciplined teams, it falls down.

The complexity feels like a natural consequence of the scale of problems we're trying to solve. But if we want the web to succeed, we should continuously ask ourselves if our solutions are actually helping developers succeed.

I think, as we optimize against marginal devices, the general case should cater to marginal developers (or at least the mean fullstack developer trying to ship at Acme Corp.). Not to say that there can't be advanced solutions for advanced developers. But IMO we should try to raise the floor.